Group Talk (Card Auction: Group B)

[Deleted]

Apr 5, 2015 17:51:10 GMT Imada Saneatsu said:

So I may as well go ahead and mention that there is at least two ways for no one to be a loser in this game.
The first is for everyone to always bet zero. The second is for everyone to work together and plan out what cards we are going to get.
Neither situation is really advantageous though, so it is highly unlikely that we will be able to pull off either of these strategies.

Just thought I'd mention it, because why not.

I support this endeavour, but the second strategy is probably more difficult due to Jokers.

[Imada Saneatsu]

...true, I hadn't actually thought of the Jokers.

But it's probably too risky to try to pull these plans off anyways. I just brought them up to get them out of the way.

[Itsuwaribito Reynard]

It's indeed risky, though there is no real negative impact on us in trying as of now. More with Plan B than Plan A though.

[Imada Saneatsu]

Sure, good point.

I would also like to mention before we try anything, that if anyone is going to try for the full house then scripting what we are going to pay would simply make taking it easier. Which would mean that scripting this would be a bad idea on any round that gives away important card(s).

For example, we script this so that each of us get a card by paying only 1 coin. This means that anyone who wanted every card would only have to pay 11 coins! Even if we raise the prices, that still gives anyone willing to steal a goal, and goals are only limited by how much one is willing to spend. And besides, it would be rather silly to cooperate and set prices, only to end up paying more anyways to prevent backstabbers.

Basically what I'm saying is that setting prices will work if there isn't a great hand on the line, since there would be no reason to stab others in the back. I'm not sure how often that would be, if ever.

We could still orchestrate some sort of cooperation, but we would need one trusted person to handle all of the exact numbers while leaving all of the others on a need-to-know basis. None of us trust each other to such an extent.

Trust is important, but none of us should stray from lawful good into lawful stupid. Nobody likes lawful stupid.

[Itsuwaribito Reynard]

Hmm... I suppose the question I have to raise here is what motivation is there to stab anyone in the back? Given that this isn't the official Liar Game yet, they have nothing to gain outside of an early win that has no meaning outside of winning. At most, backstabbing as of now would only expose someone as being untrustworthy, which in turn will likely impact them more negatively in the actual game.

Basically, I'm of the mind that it would be foolish to betray anyone right now as it's just not the optimal play to make in the long term. It's more likely to hurt oneself than it is to help.

[Imada Saneatsu]

Personally, I agree, but sometimes even the most rational people don't have rational plans.

Outside of that, I suppose that proving that you can backstab would be a show of intellect, which could be considered a good trait, and being too trusting could be misconstrued as being gullible, which is usually seen as a bad trait. Again, I agree with you, but we have four other people to think about here and they all have their own way of thinking.

I suppose the best plan would be to try to work together, and we would eventually end up in groups based on our ideals. So yeah, lets try to work together, why not.

[Itsuwaribito Reynard]

True enough there that others could jump to those conclusions, though I think if they do, that works to our advantage in the end as it reveals certain things in a more safer environment.

At any rate, you're definitely correct that

What I currently do suggest for cooperation is that we all arrange it at least for us to get 5 cards to complete one hand. After that, it's fair game between each player to pursue whatever victory they're after. That way we all get the bare minimum we need to come out of this with something then the remaining 24 cards are all fair game. That way, even if you're someone who is ambitious and wants to overall beat the other players or have something up your sleeve or whatever, you still can play for yourself after just a little bit of cooperation.

Anyway, that all aside, any suggestions what the bare minimum should be to keep an eye out for traitors, if we can get some unity on this? Or do you think we should perhaps allow the opportunity so as to flush out such players since right?

[Imada Saneatsu]

Since coins are pretty worthless, we could probably set the bar in to the double digits without anyone really caring. I say we bid at least 10, just in case. I think that it's a nice middle ground between a high and low amount.

So I guess we should start trying to call cards then? We each get 1 card for the first 5 rounds. If two people have a disagreement, we can settle that then.

We also want to know that the other four people want to cooperate, so I encourage all of you to comment now.

I'll go for the 9 I guess. Leave the 6's and Ace's to the rest of you to fight over.

[Deleted]

Imada, I can't help but feel that you are taking advantage of this cooperation.
First you suggest that all cards should be worth at least 10 coins ( 1 point ), then you go on that all players gets one card for every round and finally you make claim on the only single card on the round!

That sounds like a very unilateral deal to me!

[Imada Saneatsu]

I don't entirely see your point with the bit about the coins but let me be clear: if we are going to do this, I will spend 10 coins. The rest of you can spend however much you like.

I had us go after 1 card a round because if we had one person go after 5 cards a round then they have an advantage, and then they have no reason to further cooperate. Again, lawful good, not lawful stupid.

Though now that you mention it, the single card may be the best card here. If others want it, then they are free to contest it, and we'll find a way to resolve this. It shouldn't be too hard.

Sound lateral now?

[Avalon]

Apologies for my extended absence. I have been quite busy with Easter weekend. But I am back now, I shall look into what is happening and see what I can add.

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2015 7:29:14 GMT Imada Saneatsu said:

I don't entirely see your point with the bit about the coins but let me be clear: if we are going to do this, I will spend 10 coins. The rest of you can spend however much you like.

I had us go after 1 card a round because if we had one person go after 5 cards a round then they have an advantage, and then they have no reason to further cooperate. Again, lawful good, not lawful stupid.

Though now that you mention it, the single card may be the best card here. If others want it, then they are free to contest it, and we'll find a way to resolve this. It shouldn't be too hard.

Sound lateral now?

My objections were mainly that the nine was ( by far ) the best card if we are going with the strategy. I was getting kind of a "you can have this delicious peperoni-slice I found under the sink, while I settle for this lousy gravlax sandwich"-vibe from you, but if it was a mistake...
That being said, I think you actually SHOULD have the nine, because if you end up with a crappy hand you will have at most the same amount.

One final question: It might just be me, but if everyone work hard together to keep the status quo for five rounds, exposing themselves to the risk of betrayal, and someone still ends up losing when things do go as planned; doesn't that kind of take away something from it?

[Itsuwaribito Reynard]

It's less about "wins and losses" and more about getting oneself on the board. Remember, in the main game, there are many more win objectives than just becoming Liar King or winning the tournament. I personally am fine with not being the victor of Card Auction so long as I can get a hand that puts me on the board and would be enough to help hypothetically clear my debt. The status quo setup is meant to benefit everybody (as well as see if we can cooperate) then allow any ambitious player to go ahead and do as they please once everybody has been taken care of.

Also, I do agree that we all should limit ourselves to 1 card each round.

[Deleted]

All right, you are saying that we work together to minimize the penalty of losing. Fair enough, I'm in.

[darinas3]

Sounds good to me. I agree as well.